Talk:Boppity (Blue Frackle)
Multiple Boppities For some reason all the Frackles are being reffered to as 'Pink Boppity' and such. I think they should be refrered to as 'Pink Frackle'. The same way Hensons reffered to Boppity as 'Blue Frackle'. It seems silly to take one characters name and apply it to all who look like him. To me its like calling all Frogs of a different color names like 'Blue Kermit' when it is just another Blue Frog. Get what I mean? --Warrick 12:22, 22 March 2006 (UTC) :Dean is pretty hardcore on the Frackles. I tried to use the names "Blue Frackle" and "Green Frackle", but Dean absolutely insisted on Boppity and Gloat. He set up Green Boppity and Pink Boppity because they're very similar designs to "Blue Frackle", but a different color. Personally, I'd prefer "Blue Frackle", "Green Frackle", etc, but I don't want to spend the rest of my life going back and forth with Dean about it. -- Danny Toughpigs 14:07, 22 March 2006 (UTC) ::Can't we just put our foot down? In this case he is going against what Henson call them. Henson have called the Blue Frackle "Boppity". They call the others 'Pink Frackle' 'Green Frackle' etc, So why make up a new name? --Warrick 16:57, 22 March 2006 (UTC) :::I thought Gloat was called Green Frackle. --Pantalones 17:10, 22 March 2006 (UTC) ::::I'm all for calling them by their names that they have been called or given. But calling similar characters a name because they look like the other is not good in my book --Warrick 17:55, 22 March 2006 (UTC) :::::I agree, but I'm still wondering what the green "Boppity-esque" Frackle would be called if Gloat were already designated as the Green Frackle. --Pantalones 18:13, 22 March 2006 (UTC) :::::: I think what we all tend to forget is that these Frackles/monsters may not have names at all, and we tend to go too far searching for names. Blue Frackle was known as Boppity in one appearance, and it soon became the fanbase name because we were all in desperate need of knowing that monster's name; whereas it was named Baddy Nono on Mopatop's Shop, and I've never seen THAT name discussed. Miss Kitty was named Miss Kitty in a walk-on-camera scene on the Muppet Show, but do you really suppose it was named Miss Kitty in the Santa Switch script? My theory is that most of the Frackles are unnamed. It's not like every Sesame monster, Fraggle, Muppet cow, chicken, Whatnot or Anything Muppet has a name, either... they were made as background characters. -- Jog 18:58, 22 March 2006 (UTC) Jog :::::::I completely agree; I've been anti-Boppity and Gloat for years. I think in general it's useful to have a name for a background puppet, if there is one -- Miss Kitty and Quongo the Wild Mountain Gorilla are as good a name as any. I agree, nobody at Henson called that puppet "Miss Kitty" -- but if you say "Miss Kitty" on the wiki, then at least people will be able to tell which puppet you're talking about. It's kind of a place-holder name, since we don't have any other. :::::::The exception that I would make is if we know that Henson actually did have a name for that puppet. Vard corrected us on Mean Mama, and we changed the name. If we ever get info on what the folks at Henson called "Miss Kitty", then I'd be in favor of changing that one too. :::::::I think there's evidence that suggests that Henson called the two characters Blue Frackle and Green Frackle. My preference would be to use those names, with a note on the article about Boppity and Gloat. That's how I originally set up these pages. :::::::The problem is, I don't have the actual evidence in front of me. All I've got right now is the pictures from the UK annual that are on the two pages, with "Blue Frackle" and "Green Frackle" as captions. We've already seen that the captions in the UK annuals aren't trustworthy -- that's how we got "Big Mama". So if you guys can come up with references that say Blue Frackle and Green Frackle, then let's put that on the page, and change the titles. -- Danny Toughpigs 19:29, 22 March 2006 (UTC) ::::::::: The Muppet Show Book mentions Blue Frackle and Green Frackle. As for those Pink and Green Boppities; maybe it's a good idea to put those photos/info under Blue Frackle, since they're unnamed puppets based on that particular design... -- Jog 19:48, 22 March 2006 (UTC) ::::::::::I thought it was in that book when I was going back and forth on this page, but I flipped through the book, and I didn't see it. Good, I'm not completely losing it. I just looked again, and I see Green Frackle with Andre when he's singing "Look at That Face"... Where's Blue Frackle? -- Danny Toughpigs 19:52, 22 March 2006 (UTC) I would do this: If one of the background characters were named at any time, Then they should keep that name (the FIRST name that they are given). So Blue Frackle would be Boppity, And NOT Baddy Nono. Green Frackle would be Gloat... Pink and Green would be plain Pink Frackle and Green Frackle. I think that is the simplest and best way to do it --Warrick 00:12, 23 March 2006 (UTC) ::Except that around season 5, there were 3 different Green Frackles. -- Jog 02:49, 23 March 2006 (UTC) Jog :::Warrick, I'm not sure about always choosing the first name. I can't think of an actual example right now, but let's imagine that when Bobby Benson appeared as a background musician, somebody referred to him once as "Leroy". It would be silly to use "Leroy" as his name, when he was later much more prominent as Bobby Benson. I think it's a case by case thing. In this case, if there's evidence that Henson called them "Blue Frackle" and "Green Frackle", then that's compelling to me. Also, we can't call "Green Boppity" Green Frackle, because we already have a Green Frackle. -- Danny ::::Was that really Danny? He wasnt signed in. I just dont see any reason to call Green Frackle Green Boppity. Its just out there. Gloat is the Kermit like Green Frackle and then we have the real Green Frackle (Orange beak and ears). --Warrick 13:48, 23 March 2006 (UTC) ::::::Warrick, check the history. It was Danny, not an imposter. He was signed in, he just forgot to use the signature things. All the impersonators are too busy doing Kermit or Miss Piggy. --Andrew, Aleal ::::::::The problem with Warrick's suggestion is that there's many Frackles with the same color, most of which are unnamed. We have a total of two Blue Frackles (Blue Scoff and Blue Frackle (Boppity)); five Green Frackles (Green Frackle (Gloat), Snake Frackle, Green Scoff, Green Boppity and Dark Green Hunchback Frackle); three Purple Frackles (Miss Kitty, Purple Frackle, and one that's not on the Wiki yet but it's seen in the Vincent Price episode); one Pink Frackle (Pink Boppity) and one Grey Frackle (Elderly Frackle). Which of the five should be named Green Frackle, for instance? We don't have any name sources from Henson; unless we are in the posession of actual scripts referring to these monsters. ::::::::What if we put all the Frackles together in the "Frackles" article? That way we don't have to worry about their different names, since we simply don't know them. The Frackles of which we do know the names can get their own article. We could still keep the articles for Boppity and Gloat in the Wiki, since those names are part of Muppet history. After all, both Cigar Box Frackle (Snarl) and Gonzo have entries, for instance. Or Shakey Sanchez and Princess Lulabelle. How does that sound? -- Jog 15:01, 23 March 2006 (UTC) Jog :::::::::There are actually six green frackles (you forgot to mention Mo the Frackle). --Minor muppetz 15:11, 23 March 2006 (UTC) I dont think Ive been explaining myself properly. I would do it like this... five Green Frackles (Green Frackle (Gloat) would just be Gloat, Snake Frackle, Green Scoff, Green Boppity would be Green Frackle and Dark Green Hunchback Frackle). Two Blue Frackles (Blue Scoff and Blue Frackle (Boppity)). The Scoff is fine, The 'Blue Frackle Boppity' would be just 'Boppity. --Warrick 15:08, 23 March 2006 (UTC) :Why is Scoff fine? There's only one Scoff in Santa Switch and that's the blue one. The green vulture-like Frackle had no name. -- Jog 15:15, 23 March 2006 (UTC) Jog ::I was under the impression that we have documentation (two sources, I think) to suggest that the puppet fans call Gloat was called Green Frackle by Henson during the run of The Muppet Show. Renaming the puppet currently classified on the wiki as Green Boppity to Green Frackle would be an easy logistical fix, but it would be incorrect. Seeing as this is supposed to be an encyclopedia of sorts, I can't be for that. --Peter Pantalones 15:17, 23 March 2006 (UTC) ::: I understand what you mean. But why call it Green Boppity? Thats even more far out than calling it Green Frackle. It is a Frackle and it is Green. Gloat has been named so we have no need to also call him Green Frackle. The ORIGINAL Blue Frackle was named as Boppity. So we kept this as HIS name, Not his race. The race is Frackle. Its like calling another a Fraggle that looks like Gobo but different color 'Purple Gobo', Even tho its an entirely different character. It makes no sense to me -- Warrick 17:35, 23 March 2006 (UTC) ::::Well, there's two different questions here. ::::#1. Should we call them Boppity and Gloat, or Blue Frackle and Green Frackle? ::::#2. What should we call the characters currently referred to as Green Boppity and Pink Boppity? ::::My opinion about #1 is that we should call them Blue Frackle and Green Frackle, because we have text evidence that people at Henson used those names. We also have evidence that "Snarl" was referred to as Cigar Box Frackle. I personally don't find that song in Santa Claus Switch to be particularly compelling. It's a one-shot, two-second joke, and I think some fans have made far too much of it. ::::I don't personally have a lot of interest in question #2, except to say that Green Boppity shouldn't be called Green Frackle. We already have a puppet that we know was called Green Frackle, and giving GB that name would be confusing. -- Danny Toughpigs 17:45, 23 March 2006 (UTC) ::::: Here are my answers: ::::: #1. Should we call them Boppity and Gloat, or Blue Frackle and Green Frackle? Boppity and Gloat ::::: #2. What should we call the characters currently referred to as Green Boppity and Pink Boppity? Green Frackle and Pink Frackle ::::: -- Warrick 22:36, 23 March 2006 (UTC) :::::: I also think that we should call them Boppity and Gloat. But if it is important to call them Blue Frackle and Green Frackle, then maybe we should call the green frackle that looks like Boppity "Green Frackle #2". --Minor muppetz 23:57, 23 March 2006 (UTC) ::::::: What a fracas over Frackles. One thing that I think should be noted is that, as far as user history suggests, Green Boppity and Pink Boppity were created by an anonymous user. Whether it was Dean, not logged in, is possible but not proven (especially as Dean deleted all the performer info provided by the anonymous user}, though a Google search suggests that the only place "Pink Boppity" is used outside of this Wiki is in several of Dean's Muppet Central posts. As for Boppity and Gloat, if Henson usually referred to Boppity and Gloat as "Blue Frackle" and "Green Frackle," then I think it should still be associated with them. Warrick, you meantioned having Karen Falk's e-mail? Contacting her would certainly help. For now, while the Green one is still a problem, I'm going to go ahead and move the Pink one to Pink Frackle, since there's no real conflict (Elderly Frackle is pinkish in the face, but I think a more complete list on the Frackles page should take care of that). The season 5 Frackles all supposedly debuted in Episode 507: Glenda Jackson, so if anybody has a copy of that episode, that might help a bit. For myself, since the so-called "Green Boppity" is never fully green anyway, with a different colored face, a possible stop-gap might be "Green-Furred Frackle." It's imprecise, sure, but it might do until we get an actual label. --Andrew, Aleal 00:10, 24 March 2006 (UTC) I agree with you Andrew! -- Warrick 08:33, 24 March 2006 (UTC) :I'd agree with Pink Frackle and Green-Furred Frackle. Obviously, Boppity/Blue Frackle is going to be a sore point no matter what we do, so the way we're currently listing Boppity and Gloat is probably just as good as anything else. -- Danny Toughpigs 15:07, 24 March 2006 (UTC) ::Okay, then. I've already created Pink Frackle, and I'm rewriting Green Boppity as we speak preparatory to the move. Frankly, if the image on that page is any indication, he doesn't look a heck of a lot like Boppity anyway, outside of having ears as well as a beak. --Andrew, Aleal 23:55, 24 March 2006 (UTC) :::Ok, Here is Karen Falk's explanation. It goes with what we said... "Unfortunately, I do not have a list of Frackle names. When they were created for Santa Claus Switch, they were referred to by the puppeteers' names, the color, or the shape (so- Jim Frackle, or Blue Frackle, or Dripsnout Frackle, for example). "-- Warrick 16:04, 29 March 2006 (UTC) ::::I have noticed that while Gonzo was named Snarl in The Great Santa Clause Switch, I've seen interviews with both Jim Henson and Dave Goelz where they called him "Cigar Box Frackle", but never mention an actual proper name (though Dave Goelz didn't work for Henson at the time that the special was produced, so I wouldn't be surprised if he never even saw the special). It's strange that some frackles were named after their performers, as if the performers were planned in advance (I wonder which one Jim Frackle was). If they were named after performers, colors, or shape, then I wonder why they were given the names that they were referred to on-screen. --Minor muppetz 22:46, 2 April 2006 (UTC) :::::The names only appear in one moment of the special, as a one-second joke. The elves' song ends with a list of their names -- "We're Zippety, Skippety, Hoppity, Bing, Bong... and Fred." When the Frackles take over Santa's workshop, they sing a mocking version of the elves' song: "We're Snivelly, Snickery, Boppity, Snarl, Scoff... and Gloat." (You can see the transcript on Tough Pigs.) :::::It seems clear to me that these Frackle "names" were completely arbitrary, randomly assigned to the six Frackle puppets in the scene. They go by so fast that it's not even that easy to tell which puppet is saying which name -- the only reason fans know those names is because people have paused the tape and written it down. I'm sure that the puppeteers couldn't have told you which puppet said which name ten minutes after they recorded the scene. :::::For them, the "Gonzo" puppet was called the Cigar Box Frackle, because he appears out of a cigar box. The blue one was Blue Frackle, the one with a droopy snout was Dripsnout Frackle. "Boppity", "Gloat" and "Snarl" are the names that fans use now, but they were never used as the "real" names of the puppets. -- Danny Toughpigs 23:32, 2 April 2006 (UTC) ::::While the song could be used as a joke, to mock the song, they did use names other than the ones that the elves had. If the names were in the script, I wonder why nobody chose to design specific characters with those names. Of course, I have a feeling that Thig, Thog, and Lothar are exceptions to frackles being named after shape, color, or performer. --Minor muppetz 00:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC) ::::::What you are not understanding is that these names were never meant to pin down the characters. They're arbitrary. The Muppeters, writers, and builders don't know the name of every walk-on character. The problem is that some fans need to "know everything" and therefore the fans decided to give the frackle the name Boppity. These are backround characters with no official performer, so they were never intended to be named. Wow, this is getting really ridiculous.Scooter 00:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)